Thread: Brexit means Brexit

  1. #421
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinsley Green View Post
    you really need to know when to stop. this is now classic horseshit to try and prove you are right on brexit. you are not you are wrong. The eu screwed Honda in the UK. Honda only opened the factory to get round eu tariffs. the cars built in the uk supplied europe. there is no other honda plant in europe building cars.

    th eu negotiated away tariffs, honda leaves europe. Thanks EU.

    If you want a proper debate on supply chains come with a fact and not your opinion dressed up as fact.
    You really are a miner mate. Honda was here before the EU ever existed. When you were an unemployed miner. Dig yourself a bigger pit. I was working as a sheetie of dead Tonkas in the cold war BFG when Honda came in as a partner to Rover. They built better cars. Oh, so did the Germans to our British/ American owned shite.
    Alonso Hater

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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by litebulbs View Post
    I disagree, it is very relevant and I believe this is just the start. Will the UK be on its knees, absolutely not. Will we prosper, maybe. Will we slip a few levels down on global importance, probably. See what I have done there Tinsley, I have used relational terms.

    In your mind, will a post Brexit no deal senario deliver a move up, status quo, or move down the GDP list?

    Now, if your answer is the latter, but you feel it will make you British again (whatever that is) then I am sure it is a small price to pay for you.
    Lights.. You are talking to a brick wall mate. I can say this thought. The idoit that designed the Fairchild/Dornier 328 wing light needs sodding shooting. Anyone that need to seal a replaceable light in needs shooting!
    Alonso Hater

  3. #423
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Right....so people are losing their jobs and your first instinct is to go on the attack instead of trying to figure where the fault could lie and deal with a root cause, even if it is not Brexit as it is potentially in Honda's case.

    So theoretically we ban imports from any Honda and Nissan plants in Europe as your first strike in 38 days time. The EU response will be to ban imports from any UK plants now that we are out of the EU and do not have a trade or customs agreement (Current situation). The EU will also protect their members position and ban imports or impose tariffs on other UK produced products. You have also started a spat with Japan as the home country of Honda/Nissan. That trade agreement Brexiteers are so fond of throwing around has just been suspended and tariffs are imposed on all UK products heading to Japan. You've just alienated 2 of our biggest trade partners.

    Meantime we are supposed to buy British products. So I'll nip off to my local British owned car dealer, Morgan, Caterham, McLaren .........actually here is the full list https://www.theaa.com/car-buying/cars-made-in-britain for my next car. Note how many of them are actually foreign owned and may review operations in the future post Brexit. JLR are laying off staff now and looking at a plant in Eastern Europe that in the future could be the main manufacturing plant due to tariffs and the customs union so they are off the list. Ford? Vauxhall? And because you have started a trade war with Japan they have moved all their manufacturing back to Japan or built a new plant in the EU because of the bigger market and better trading conditions.

    No problem. I tootle off down to Coutts Bank and borrow a quick £50billion ???? to design, manufacture, build a factory after passing all the environmental assessments, purchase robots for the assembly line and arrange suppliers. Oh wait....most of the suppliers are in the EU and we haven't got a customs agreement so the just in time logistics goes out the window. No problem, I'll nip off to China and buy in bulk. Oh. Haven't got a trade a agreement with them (current situation) and will double the cost as I'm now having to ship stuff half way round the world including the steel you will need as the EU won't deal with you due to your self inflicted trade war and tariffs. I'll have to borrow some more ££££billion to set up a steel plant as well as Tata (Indian) can produce it cheaper overseas or in the EU and ship it quicker into the EU due to a customs union and less tariffs so moved production out of the UK. Meanwhile Coutts are asking for your business plan. What is your market? Not the EU as you have just barred their imported cars and they retaliated remember. Japan, unlikely. USA...no chance. China - wrapped up with their own products and various European brands manufactured locally or imported quickly from Japan. Coutts say no. You look overseas for funding but they all say no as there are better ideas and facilities, markets in the EU, China, Thailand, Japan. So how big is the UK car market as your only option due to your self inflicted trade war and you can shake off the British Leyland MK??? tag? Not everyone can afford a Mclaren, and a Caterham/Morgan will not suit a families needs, and those companies are niche manufacturers that rely on being able to import for their supply chain, but due to your self inflicted trade war with the EU they can't get enough parts, steel etc to come up with a new model so shut down.

    Going well for the country this first strike business isn't it????

    Trade agreements, of which we have very few of worth as our main agreements are currently between the EU and the third country, take years to negotiate and we will be in a weak position as the desperation will be palpable. The Trump's USA are keen to have an agreement with us....they can smell the blood already. Meantime, due to your first strike attitude, UK industry is struggling to trade with anyone and waiting for an agreement to get into the foreign markets. And you are suggesting banning imports as your first measure.....great starting point to enter negotiations. Gone are the days of trading tea, spices, rubber from our Empire around the globe. We already have a trade deficit and you think we can make that up by bringing production back on-shore but will no longer have the knowledge, trading links or investment from the EU or overseas? Financial services is the UK's biggest "product" these days and that will never employ the vast numbers who are being made redundant just in the car industry alone.

    I seriously hope the heroes of the Brexit revolution have a better understanding of trade agreements and negotiation than Tinsley and NS, and realise that the "we can manage on our own, on-shore, trading on our own terms" in this inter-linked, trade agreement driven global industrial environment just isn't going to cut it.

    To put it into our industry terms.....OneWorld, Sky Team, Star Alliance contain all the major world airlines are in effect EU's and look at the amount of control and market share they have by working together. VS had to get in bed with Delta and AF/KLM now to survive. Brexit is basically leaving an airline alliance to go it alone by losing all your revenue from connections and interlines and going back to just your own routes. Hope you guys aren't in airline management to boot!
    Tom.. Logic and Brexit do not co exist mate. I walked into a reunion of 250 crabs and the first guy I spoke to said to me "Great to see you Alber, you are the only other sane person here!" Brexit central. People that actually had never worked out of the military/ military contractor/ service industries. None of them had ever worked in primary or secondary industries. Tinsley. You know what that means? You have done two out of the three. The middle one is what made this country great.
    Alonso Hater

  4. #424
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Right....so people are losing their jobs and your first instinct is to go on the attack instead of trying to figure where the fault could lie and deal with a root cause, even if it is not Brexit as it is potentially in Honda's case.

    So theoretically we ban imports from any Honda and Nissan plants in Europe as your first strike in 38 days time. The EU response will be to ban imports from any UK plants now that we are out of the EU and do not have a trade or customs agreement (Current situation). The EU will also protect their members position and ban imports or impose tariffs on other UK produced products. You have also started a spat with Japan as the home country of Honda/Nissan. That trade agreement Brexiteers are so fond of throwing around has just been suspended and tariffs are imposed on all UK products heading to Japan. You've just alienated 2 of our biggest trade partners.

    Meantime we are supposed to buy British products. So I'll nip off to my local British owned car dealer, Morgan, Caterham, McLaren .........actually here is the full list https://www.theaa.com/car-buying/cars-made-in-britain for my next car. Note how many of them are actually foreign owned and may review operations in the future post Brexit. JLR are laying off staff now and looking at a plant in Eastern Europe that in the future could be the main manufacturing plant due to tariffs and the customs union so they are off the list. Ford? Vauxhall? And because you have started a trade war with Japan they have moved all their manufacturing back to Japan or built a new plant in the EU because of the bigger market and better trading conditions.

    No problem. I tootle off down to Coutts Bank and borrow a quick £50billion ???? to design, manufacture, build a factory after passing all the environmental assessments, purchase robots for the assembly line and arrange suppliers. Oh wait....most of the suppliers are in the EU and we haven't got a customs agreement so the just in time logistics goes out the window. No problem, I'll nip off to China and buy in bulk. Oh. Haven't got a trade a agreement with them (current situation) and will double the cost as I'm now having to ship stuff half way round the world including the steel you will need as the EU won't deal with you due to your self inflicted trade war and tariffs. I'll have to borrow some more ££££billion to set up a steel plant as well as Tata (Indian) can produce it cheaper overseas or in the EU and ship it quicker into the EU due to a customs union and less tariffs so moved production out of the UK. Meanwhile Coutts are asking for your business plan. What is your market? Not the EU as you have just barred their imported cars and they retaliated remember. Japan, unlikely. USA...no chance. China - wrapped up with their own products and various European brands manufactured locally or imported quickly from Japan. Coutts say no. You look overseas for funding but they all say no as there are better ideas and facilities, markets in the EU, China, Thailand, Japan. So how big is the UK car market as your only option due to your self inflicted trade war and you can shake off the British Leyland MK??? tag? Not everyone can afford a Mclaren, and a Caterham/Morgan will not suit a families needs, and those companies are niche manufacturers that rely on being able to import for their supply chain, but due to your self inflicted trade war with the EU they can't get enough parts, steel etc to come up with a new model so shut down.

    Going well for the country this first strike business isn't it????

    Trade agreements, of which we have very few of worth as our main agreements are currently between the EU and the third country, take years to negotiate and we will be in a weak position as the desperation will be palpable. The Trump's USA are keen to have an agreement with us....they can smell the blood already. Meantime, due to your first strike attitude, UK industry is struggling to trade with anyone and waiting for an agreement to get into the foreign markets. And you are suggesting banning imports as your first measure.....great starting point to enter negotiations. Gone are the days of trading tea, spices, rubber from our Empire around the globe. We already have a trade deficit and you think we can make that up by bringing production back on-shore but will no longer have the knowledge, trading links or investment from the EU or overseas? Financial services is the UK's biggest "product" these days and that will never employ the vast numbers who are being made redundant just in the car industry alone.

    I seriously hope the heroes of the Brexit revolution have a better understanding of trade agreements and negotiation than Tinsley and NS, and realise that the "we can manage on our own, on-shore, trading on our own terms" in this inter-linked, trade agreement driven global industrial environment just isn't going to cut it.

    To put it into our industry terms.....OneWorld, Sky Team, Star Alliance contain all the major world airlines are in effect EU's and look at the amount of control and market share they have by working together. VS had to get in bed with Delta and AF/KLM now to survive. Brexit is basically leaving an airline alliance to go it alone by losing all your revenue from connections and interlines and going back to just your own routes. Hope you guys aren't in airline management to boot!
    Tom.. Logic and Brexit do not co exist mate. I walked into a reunion of 250 crabs two days after the 23rd and the first guy I spoke to said to me "Great to see you Alber, you are the only other sane person here!" Brexit central. People that actually had never worked out of the military/ military contractor/ service industries. None of them had ever worked in primary or secondary industries. Tinsley. You know what that means? You have done two out of the three. The middle one is what made this country great.
    Alonso Hater

  5. #425
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinsley Green View Post
    your hysteria tom is amazing. Fact up for christs sake.

    1. THERE ARE NO HONDA PLANTS IN EUROPE JUST UK
    2. EU has just signed a tariff free import/export deal with Japan

    THATS WHY HONDA DOESN'T NEED ANY EU OR UK FACTORIES ANYMORE. THEY WERE ONLY HERE TO GET AROUND TARIFFS
    Once again Tinsley.......read what is actually written. I responded to a post by N/S saying that we should respond to the Honda news by banning imports from EU plants, he didn't specifically reference Honda or Nissan, and I expanded on that with possible outcomes to that action to try and demonstrate the inter-connectivity of the manufacturing industry, trade agreements, customs unions, trade wars and such like, even though I knew there were no such plants in the EU. I even acknowledged that Honda had not linked their news to Brexit. Read the words, not what you think I have written.

    So, lets flip this around. There has been a reasonable amount of news regarding shut downs, movement of business away from the UK etc, even Brexiteer James Dyson has decided his yet to be revealed car will be built in Singapore , so lets all be positive. Show me where the good news for business and the workforce is coming from regarding job creation, factories opening, inward investment to off set these losses, and the good news can be attributed to Brexit.
    A modern day warrior

  6. #426
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    @Tom Sawyer,
    Your long write-up extols the merits of membership of big clubs. In one of Tinsley's later posts, he wrote beautifully how as a club member one tried to suggest changes for improvements, but the other members insisted there was no need for a change. The member then asked his nation to decide whether to remain in the club or leave. Nation decided: Leave the club.

    I wrote in my closing paragraph,
    Globalisation has cost us the loss of many homebred brands. We are emerging from the EU, not a nuclear blast, therefore we should simply roll up our sleeves and get back to doing what we know best.
    If that sentence was fully expanded, it would be longer than your response. To give a few examples;
    1. The Chinese bought our Rover plant. Everything was uprooted from Longbridge and carted away to China.
    2. JLR was happy selling high-end Range/Landrovers to China. As soon as the Chinese figured out how things worked, they started building their own versions and JLR sales dipped.
    3. Our award-winning Minis got sold to the Germans.
    4. The French rushed in to buy our Vauxhall. In no time at all, they were threatening UK job losses and production line replacement with Peugeots.
    5. Rolling stock for UK train companies are built by foreign manufacturers to the neglect of our Derby-based manufacturer.

    If the maverick Donald Trump can see the ill-effect of globalisation on the big American economy, maybe it is time for us to also open our eyes to take in the realities on the ground. Crying about Brexit and EU/Japan trade deals is a futile exercise. We need to return to the idea of making the UK work. Our first priority should be producing for our home consumption, otherwise we will be exposed to products like plastic rice being exported by some Far East nations.
    I love this job

  7. #427
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    So to put this into terms of Tinsley's "beautiful" analogy to help things along; a healthclub is not a democratic system. You enter a personal membership agreement with the clubs management to abide by their rules. If you suggest some changes and they refuse, well tough luck really. It is their club, they can do what they want with it.

    So, for the sake of argument lets assume the club is a co-operative owned and managed by the membership with a council of reps that have been voted into position including yourself. You suggest some changes to the club's equipment to the membership, it is forwarded, discussed and voted on, but not accepted by the other members under vote for whatever reason. Another member suggests something, it goes through the same process and is accepted. The rest of the membership suggest juggling with axes. You say that is not for you and you don't want to participate in that activity so you decline (veto) the idea but you let the others carry on as they are all for it and you are "excused". Then what? You don't like the democracy in action even though you have been part of the process?

    So you decide to go and find another club. It is smaller. Equipment not as good so your general health declines. It is across the other side of town so the travel costs more. Membership costs more. Not as many benefits. You decide to try and improve the club but can't get investors or borrow enough money so you can't get new equipment or employ more staff, the best/most local equipment suppliers are in an agreement with the club you have just left and won't supply you on the same terms, membership does not increase due to the reasons I have just stated so the club suffers financially. Where was the benefit in leaving the co-operative club?

    Now I'm sure the analogy is obvious, and in fact can be applied to our own Parliamentary system that is claimed some how to give us more control, but in fact works under the same process as the EU. We elect members to both of them, and occasionally they will inflict laws onto you that you do not agree with depending on what your political stance is. In fact you do not have much chance to veto any rule from Westminster, but the UK can and has vetoed items under the EU parliament. Anything from the EU that has been agreed by the democratic process goes to our Parliament before it becomes UK law. The EU have not "dictated" anything to the UK that has not been through a "democratic" process. So when we do leave the EU, and a UK Government passes a law you do not like, what are going to do? Do we then break it down further to the individual councils of England, Wales, NI & Scotland? Into individual Shire councils. Town/City councils ...........until you find a level where you feel you have control and get your way. Pointless exercise because you will never feel you have reached that level of control really. Leaving the EU will not give you anymore control than what you have already got.

    So, anyway like I said in a post somewhere above, I am open to seeing some positive economic news that you can be directly attributed to Brexit improvements and after the recent poor economic news. The Brexit dividend I believe it was called. So lets be positive now and see some please.
    A modern day warrior

  8. #428
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    AR..... Post 241. I saw what you were up to you little monkey. You slipped in something about an airplane...... on an Aircraft Engineers Forum, you should be ashamed of yourself.
    Dont forget, its an adventure, not a job!

  9. #429

    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    Tom you are doing it again. Your last post started off promising, looked like a proper debate could begin then you did very dim thing, just like litebulbs does and start throwing in untruths, opinions, sometimes nonsense.

    Equipment not as good so your general health declines.
    the above quote from your post, pure conjecture, not based on fact or reality
    Come back with solid facts and less nonsense about what may or may not happen.

    not a valid analogy.

  10. #430

    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    no smoking I would vote for you.

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