Thread: Brexit means Brexit

  1. #631
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    So, how is the PM going to convince the house to back the same deal? What is the real reason?

  2. #632
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    NS Comment: As the Don urged, let's "not waste this time". Time to show some bottle and do the right thing.[/QUOTE]

    But what is the right thing? Most people seem to think a no deal is not the right thing apart from the hardcore Brexiteers, so hopefully that is off the table. So leave with deal, or stay in?

    The EU will not be in a mood to have another round of talks to revise May's deal to any great significance so it will get put to Parliament with little adjustment to try and by-pass the Speakers previous ruling, and where the only way it will pass will be due to a war of attrition by May. And so the country ends up with a deal that no one really likes, but at present is the only option for those on the leave side. JRM, Boris & co haven't really come up with any viable alternative, so I think their intransigence will be their undoing.

    So, for the remain side there does seem to be a sense of momentum and turning of opinion with most polls reflect a margin of stay in the EU now. I think May is making a pretty big error just brushing remainers away with over 6 million signing a petition and a march a few weeks ago that had a larger turn-out that any of the Brexit supporting marches. However, capitalising on that position will be difficult for the remainers as they don't really have an obvious voice at the higher levels of Government or Parliament. I think a second referendum stands a good chance of dividing the country even further, even it did deliver a remain verdict with a significant margin as the polls suggest.

    For me, even as a remainer, I think Article 50 should be revoked to get rid of the time pressures and review the actual leave process and what it is that is actually wanted and can be agreed by the Brexiteers, and then re-submit A50 once Parliament has accepted all the measures. In reality this will take years and how we can be a part of the EU whilst all this is in progress opens up a whole other load of worm cans though.

    I was in the UK recently, and the question I was asked most as an expat was about how the UK is being viewed overseas, and it is basically with amazement of how one of the world's oldest democratic institutions and peoples has gotten itself into this position of such self conflict and division.

    So, what is the "right thing" that will resolve the Brexit requirement and unite the country? Damned if I know.
    A modern day warrior

  3. #633
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    The latest publication of Private Eye made an interesting observation regarding Jacob Rees Mogg and the current withdrawal agreement when this was his view last November -

    Dear Colleagues,

    Like you I supported the Prime Minister in her early approach to the Brexit negotiations. I agreed with her Lancaster House speech that this should be built around the ability of the UK to take back control of our laws, borders and money while safeguarding our precious Union.

    Unfortunately the proposals for a UK/EU agreement released today do not match up to those early expectations. For four key reasons.

    1. The proposed agreement will see the UK hand over 」39 billion to the EU for little or nothing in return. The prospect of an agreed free trade agreement is as far away today as it always has been. The 15 page political declaration is neither binding nor clear in its intentions. If it aims to put in place the Chequers proposal it is neither workable nor respectful of the referendum result. In the absence of a trade agreement we should spend our money on our own priorities, for instance 」39 billion could pay for 26,000 nurses for 40 years.

    2. The proposed agreement would treat Northern Ireland differently than the rest of the UK. This is unacceptable to Unionists particularly in Northern Ireland, and Scotland where the SNP will seek to demand similar internal UK borders to weaken the Union.

    3. This agreement will lock us into an EU customs union and EU laws. This will prevent us pursuing a UK trade policy based around our priorities and economy. Without the ability to regulate our own economy and form our own trade agreements we will lose out on the opportunities that Brexit affords us.

    4. Agreeing to be subject to the rules of an EU Customs Union, in contravention of the 2017 Conservative manifesto, without any votes or influence is profoundly undemocratic. This is compounded by the lack of any ability for the UK to unilaterally escape, making the UK a permanent rule taker.
    For these reasons I can not support the proposed agreement in Parliament and would hope that Conservative MPs would do likewise.

    Yours
    覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧-

    Jacob Rees-Mogg MP

    (source - https://brexitcentral.com/text-jacob...wal-agreement/ )

    He has now voted for what he opposed last year. He changed his mindvoted for the agreement
    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    So, what is the "right thing" that will resolve the Brexit requirement and unite the country? Damned if I know.
    I don't know, but I believe that people are more aware now of what staying or leaving actually means, than they did 2 1/2 years ago. We listened to two campaigns and were fed some less than truthful (non) facts.

    I would get some academics to sit down and write a paper based on the economic and social impacts of staying, leaving with or leaving without the current agreement and the probability of the outcomes. These experts should state openly their position but lay out argument for all 3 cases in a document that all have access to. We then vote on what would be the eventuality we would prefer. This would be a people's indicative vote (our MP's are allowed to have them). If it is to remain, we then have a 2nd referendum to ratify the decision to remain. If it is either of the leave with or leave without, we have a referendum on which one.

    This is sort of the position with Parliament at the moment, but they are stuck, because they have all three eventualities but have painted themselves into a corner. They cannot leave with no deal, they cannot change the current one and there is no clear majority to remain.

  4. #634
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by litebulbs View Post
    He has now voted for what he opposed last year. He changed his mind and voted for the agreement.
    I couldn't edit....

  5. #635

    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    'bulbs, JRM could see that brexit might be cancelled if the PM's deal didn't go through. He thought May's deal was better than not exiting at all. The longer this goes on the more likely a soft brexit (which is not really a brexit at all) or a cancellation of a50 might occur.

  6. #636
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    BBC News; Friday 12 April 2019
    Nigel Farage launches Brexit Party ahead of European elections

    Ex-UKIP leader Nigel Farage has launched his new Brexit Party, saying he wants a "democratic revolution" in UK politics.

    Speaking in Coventry, he said May's expected European elections were the party's "first step" but its "first task" was to "change politics".

    "I said that if I did come back into the political fray it would be no more Mr Nice Guy and I mean it," he said.

    But UKIP dismissed the Brexit Party as a "vehicle" for Mr Farage.

    The launch comes after Prime Minister Theresa May agreed a Brexit delay to 31 October with the EU, with the option of leaving earlier if her withdrawal agreement is approved by Parliament.

    This means the UK is likely to have to hold European Parliament elections on 23 May.

    Mr Farage said the Brexit Party had an "impressive list" of 70 candidates for the elections. Among those revealed at the launch was Annunziata Rees-Mogg, sister of leading Conservative Brexiteer MP Jacob Rees-Mogg.

    Mr Farage said: "This party is not here just to fight the European elections... this party is not just to express our anger - 23 May is the first step of the Brexit Party. We will change politics for good."

    He said he was "angry, but this is not a negative emotion, this is a positive emotion".

    The party had already received 」750,000 online over 10 days, he said, made up of small donations of up to 」500.
    Full Report: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47907350

    NS Comment: Farage re-enters the ring. This should stir things up. Say it will be a true test of the 5million petitioners, if we see a large turnout for the new Brexit Party.
    I love this job

  7. #637
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    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Capetown View Post
    JRM could see that brexit might be cancelled if the PM's deal didn't go through.
    Yep, that's my point. I posted his words. Read them again. How could he possibly change his mind? However, he has and it is a fundamental shift. Now, could there be people within the electorate who, back in 2016, who wanted to leave with a deal, but now want to remain?

    Another question, if I may? If there was a second reforendum, what would you "guess" the turnout to be?

  8. #638

    Default Re: Brexit means Brexit

    That is a lot of questions 'bulbs! I hardly think I'm qualified to answer but if you insist, 1) It was the choice of a lesser evil, 2) there could be people who wanted to leave with a deal, but equally there could be people who voted remain who now want to leave with a deal. (your guess is as good as mine!) As to the last question my guess would be guess so it carries no weight!

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